Tuesday, December 16, 2008

A debate on influence of Islam culture on terrorism

The following is a debate I had with one of my friend during January 2009 on influence of Islam culture on terrorism. People decide who is right. It is posted in a popular social networking site, hence the beginning is in a regional language but my replies are always in English. The lines in brackets are my thoughts and not posted as a reply.

me:


I believe religion has no bearing on cruelty, hatred has. If you want to stop this then you have to stop being unfair to the weak.
What do you think happens to the young guy in Gujarat, who saw his sisters and neighbors getting violated before his very eyes and the men who did that ran scot free because the government was a pussy and encouraged such practices.
Even in this case that idiot tried to gain some points by announcing cash to the deceased guy whose blood he was after in immediate past when the poor deceased constables families had to be content with a paltry sum.
Given a chance he would redo the riot and violate Muslims. And what the poor Muslim do - join the fidayeen and try to get revenge not realising, the terrorists are using them to their own end.
India is paying for its impotency to impose law and order.
We the people are responsible for putting morons at the top.

otherguy:

1> The entire problem has two faces.
The first one is of the religious side. These muslims, who have nothing but only religion,are brainwashed by some equally rascal muslims in name of jannat,jehad.
Do you disagree that no other community has ever destroyed the world as much as these muslims have done. It's the muslims who have been marked as brutal and betrayal. The biggest ones from India are Mir jafar and Aurangazeb in history and hundreds of Muslims now,living in India,and praying for Pakistan.contd...


me:

Reply 1>
Mir jafar saved India from the idiosyncrasy of Sirajdaulla. That guy was an idiot.
Aurangazeb was an oppressor an so was Asoke.

I disagree that no other community has ever destroyed the world as much as these muslims have done.

Do not forget the man slaughter in the name of Crusade.

otherguy:

2> Hussain hindu deb debider nogno kore aakbe, tobuo taake kicchu kora hobe na; othocho muhammader 1ta cartoon aka hole sara biswa tolpar hoye jay, Denmarkr embassy mara hoy?
Taslima meyeder kamona,basona, ba dhormer ondhota niye kichu likhle Muslim maulvi fatwa jari kore je or mukhey je chai makhate parbe taake puruskrito kora hobe?Amra sobbho somajey aachi?? contd...



me:

Reply 2>
Artistic freedom should prevail. But Muslim maulavis and the Vatican is again no different in this respect. The difference lies in that all the idiots are kept at one place in Rome while the other idiots are let loose over the world.



otherguy:

3> Sob goondagardi, dakati, chintai, jongipana - sobar dhormo muslim? Keno?
Era 1ta osikkhito jaat; ki janis muslim dhormo niye? Oder meyeder sorbango dekhey raakhey,keno? Oder kaachey meyera holo somajk dusito kore, cheleder moddhey uttejona choray...tai taader dekhe rakha hoy; taader kaaj ki? Ei purusgulor saririk anondo deya bichanay sooye. Egulo ami bolchi na, egulo amar 1ta muslim bondhur thekei sona. Amra kothay aachi? contd...

me:

I think the terrorist has succeeded in their mission. They have succeeded in transmitting their HATRED in at least one person.


otherguy:

4> And you say "unfair to weak"??
The other side is the politics. Vote bankr khaatire ei muslimgulokei tosamod kore jabe idiot politicians.Eder mainey amader thekeo kom, but CBI raid kore dekhao gechey eder asset value koek crore; kotha theke aase etto taka? Kono CBI raid complete hoy na keno? Keu sasti pay na?contd...


otherguy:

5> Ekaner stupid Mamata factory hoyar poreo go dhorey roilo okhanei chaas hobe; thik thaak vabe punorbason hok seta na dekhey idiot ta 7din national highway block kore raakhlo.Kotto khabar, koto jinis nosto korlo, koi taar hiseb to rakhey ni. 1ta industry chole gelo ei meyetar murkhotar jonne. Ki bisaaal loss, kintu tatey er ki?
Keralar CM bolte parey "Sandip mara na gele okhane Kukuro dhukto na.".contd...


otherguy:

6> Sobkota bosti theke uthey ese politics join kore des chalate?? Crores of Rupees diye MP MLA kena hoy? Eder raastay daar koriey chabuk diye mara uchit.
Ki chilo, r ki korlo desh take.
Er jonne Muslimder ondhota jemon karon, temoni amader Politiciansrao er karon, er poreo 1ta idiot race will go on supporting one rascal community.end


me :

(last 3 points not replied.)

otherguy:

1> The terrorists spread inhumanity across the world, and I am against those crooked mentality.
We all know there are many good muslims; but you say somebody as bad when his/her major characteristics are bad; you say someone is good when his major qualities are good;
for this muslim race, the majority is crooked and rotten.
You name one non-muslim in the world of crime, I will name 100s of muslims in the same sphere.

me:

Everyone in Sicily are criminals and all of them are devout Catholics. It's the place and condition which plays a role and not religion.

otherguy:

2> Every religion has fundamentalist, but why only the Muslims are involved in all terrorisms? Why guys from only this religion get brainwashed in the name of jannat? That's because they are not given education but thrown into madrasahs, where they are taught only about religion.
Tui torko korchis ki niye?
Ami Jammu Kashmir ghure esechi; okhane India pakistanr match hole sobai pakistank support kore; (as per our cab driver/guide), karon ora janei na ora kon dese belong kore; shudu jane Pakistan holo oder quam-er desh; emono na je school nei, but oder pathano hoy madrasahey; r eder jonne every 10metres distance-e jawan ra daariey, ei osikkhito deshodrohi gulok bachate!!!

me:

I agree .
The point is hate wanna be Pakistanis not the religion.


otherguy:

3> J&K television-e school studentr quiz hocchey, prosno ki? Ki ki khaya jay rozar somoy, ki ki kora uchit true muslim hoyar jonne. Eta sikkha?School students der ei sikkha deya hoy?
Asoke came to the realization of good, Aurangazeb never did and so are many muslim emperors in history.Asoker sathey eder tulona koris na, juddher por eka asok ja korechey ta sob muslim emperor ra mileo kore ni.
Taj mahal is one of the 7th WOW;but toirir por sobkota karigorir haat kete neya holo? Era to konodin manus chilo na, era holo manuser namey kolonko.
Jekota illegal/duplicate sim kolkata theke gelo, sob toka Muslim area keno?
Artistic freedom bolchis? Tahole Taslimar jibon aaj biponno, Denmarkr embassy mara hoye gelo, kothay gelo tor artistic freedom.R jokhon Hussain saraswati debi,lakkhi thakur der nogno kore akchey, tokhon artistic freedom?
4> Pakistan-er theke besi Muslim ekhane aachey. Kota Muslim porto amader sathey?

me:

I agree again. But again Muslims of this country are poor and cannot afford the education that u received. Look in Ramkrishna mission, Shantiniketan and government schools and u will find ample Muslims.

It is sin enough to be poor in India but to be a poor Muslim you need guts.

Muslims are plagued by their arrogant fundamentalists but millions of people can't be bad at the same time. They are not some other species and statistics decree the same percentage of criminal element as in other communities.

Do not confuse the idiotic and heinous religious rules and actions with acts committed against society.

you are inclined to such an deduction because the terrorists try to justify kafer killing with their religion.

As Shakespeare said ,
"The devil can cite Scripture for his purpose."

Maybe we should stick to english so that non-bengali people can read these posts.

I already argued this point. poor Muslims are the oppressed class in India and they have feeling of being left out of society and suffer from inferiority complex. Kill the sin not the sinner.

And who said ,the number of Muslim criminals are larger than the number of Hindu criminals.

Of all the notorious bhais in mumbai only the top brass is Muslim and lower classes are mostly derived from hindus.

And we Indians have no dearth of criminals. Many CMs are political criminals. Here u r worried 10 people killed 300 people. The politicians, RSS leaders caused the death of thousands. And even after that they can afford to flaunt.

otherguy:


1> I think, I have cited that the Rotten Muslim community and the politicians are the root causes. We had been speaking about this uncultured race, so let's stick to it; once we sort it out, then bring in the Politicians.
By the way,Shakes wrote "Even Saturn can qoute from the Bible for his purpose" and not "The devil can cite Scripture for his purpose."; provide correct ones if quotes are to be given.
Now coming back to the point.
Of what are you speaking?
You spoke of a nation of Crminals, I spoke of countries.
You spoke of Artistic Freedom in name of Nude images of Saraswati, Laksmi but forgot the same when cartoons of Muhammed were published,things were written about desire of women,oppression of women,from and within the community. Where were your freedom there? You failed in answering me.
You spoke Muslims only form a part/class of the criminals in the name of Dawood,Abu Salem,Shakeel,but forgot that it's the Muslims who form the major part in smuggling,dacoity,robbery,pickpocketing.


me :


I quote was given from memory. Apparently a simple google search would have revealed the correctness.

So let's provide reference - The Merchant of Venice, act 1, sc. 3, l. 97 (1600). Referring to Shylock.


But still it seems someone has to read a little bit of history books rather than let emotions have better of them.

One religion cannot be judged by actions of their fanatic population.

Babri masjid case does not prove that all Hindus are intolerant or Muslim haters. It is small fraction of idiots like RSS.

If I hate a whole community just because coincidence dictates some top brass criminals are from that community then it does not make me any different from Nazis or al- whatever qida .

otherguy:


2> You spoke about Poor Muslims; but couldn't explain why poor women of this community do not come for a living in else's houses.You had no answer why you couldn't show me the number of muslims turning out in daily labour jobs,like working as carpenters,builders,rickshaw pullers...etc.You couldn't explain why they have a fleet of babies breeding in their houses,even the rich ones have 4-5; that's there numbers!!!
You spoke about ignorance, lack of education. But when these boys(remember girls have no right to get educated) are sent to schools(not even to madrasahs), they are taught what are the things that can have at time of Rozas...
Muslims are minority? Then tell me why Hindus or christians don't have such schools to get literated? The Missionary schools conform to the Board standards, and not to the religion standards as Madrasahs do.

me :

but couldn't explain why poor women of this community do not come for a living in else's houses.

I have no right to judge a community from the shyness of their women. Yes, it means they are backward in their ideas. But that does not imply they are murders and terrorists. Oppression of woman is a social stigma. Let's not forget that Hindus were the leaders in this regard less than 100 yrs ago. Any oppressive social conduct will definitely break only when it crosses the tolerance level, which fortunately it did for Hindus.

Muslims hide their women in burkha, but at least they do not burn them alive. History is witness that both Hinduism and Christianity are responsible for this sin.

One thing must not be forgotten , the Hindus had spiritual liberation in the 1900s (Swami Vivekananda, Sri Aurobindo ... ) while Catholic church/Vatican is so moronic that nobody (read a large fraction ) listens to it.


You couldn't explain why they have a fleet of babies breeding in their houses,even the rich ones have 4-5; that's there numbers!!!

Wrong !!! Educated Muslims have as many children as their social counterparts. On the other hand an uneducated/ semi-educated Hindu villager in Patna has at least 3 children. It is the lack of education and not religious practices that is to blame.



.You had no answer why you couldn't show me the number of muslims turning out in daily labour jobs,like working as carpenters,builders,rickshaw pullers...etc.

When I said I have no answer !!

The jobs you mention, it turns out that except rickshaw pullers, which does not require much skill, all are monopolized by Muslims. They were and still are the best skilled laborers you can find. They are legendary in their masonry skills. Forgot the Taj Mahal ?? !!!


Then tell me why Hindus or christians don't have such schools to get literated?

They have !!!

Oh come on !! Do I need to list them all.

Missionary schools forcing street children into Christianity, Catholic schools - St. Xaviers, our own school Aurobindo Ashram with healthy dosage of Sri Aurobindo every Friday (mandatory brainwashing), Christian convents, Arya samaji schools teaching lifelong celibacy, list is simply endlessss.

Missionary schools conform to the Board standards

I think Bible is not a standard textbook ordered by the board.

otherguy:

3> If there is a will, there's a way.The women who work in our house, even sends their children to schools(in spite of all odds) but do we see the same things from a Muslim. If children are to be sent, they will be sent in Madrasahs, where things about their religion will be taught, not about things that should educate minds.
Dear friend, it's nice to see jugglary of words,art of language when I read your scraps, but when you are in a debate then please provide me facts with which you can justify your points.

me:

(DUH.)

otherguy:

4> So far, whatever things I have spoken about have left you hollowed and swallowed, because you couldn't answer me in any issues.
The sinners are not only the ones who are washing these heads, but also the ones who get washed. And these rascals get washed because they never learnt to open their eyes, they never tried to get educated,they never tried to see beyond their religion.
And please,with Muslims exceeding Pakistan's count, don't call these as minority, at least they are no longer.
Yet you couldn't explain why we don't find Muslims as classmates.
By the way, how many years have passed since you saw a muslim girl going for higher education?

me:

the way, how many years have passed since you saw a muslim girl going for higher education?

Let's not get hung on the girls. I agree they are really beautiful and it hurts me to see their faces covered under burkha. Aligarh Muslim university. My friends have visited, it's teeming with Muslim girls. One of my colleague here is Muslim.

The PUNE university is flooded with hot, Muslim girls. It is the (most probably) problem of backwardness of the state you are living in.

otherguy:

5> Please,when you reply the next time, come with some proper facts,figures or at least try to answer to the points I have raised. I feel no joy in reading 100lines of literature void and null to its contents.

me :

( Well, I think a prejudiced head is more void and null than my words. )


(to be continued ...)
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otherguy:

Dear Saugata,

Lets stick to a debate instead of going on personal attacks.

My equation is quite simple and yet I am not getting any answers whatsoever.

1> They are poor,but I find little or no efforts in making a living. I can only laugh when I hear majority muslims are rickshaw pullers.

Yet except in Muslim dominated regions, I find none working for a living.

And that's why you find maximum muslims in all these unethical jobs,smuggling,loot,terrorism.



me :

I can only laugh when I hear majority muslims are rickshaw pullers.


No majority Muslims are filthy rich, oil-giants.

I meant in India many good masons are generally Muslims, etc. There is a difference between “most Muslims are masons” and “most masons are Muslims”. Hope this is understood. Laughter is good.



Yet except in Muslim dominated regions, I find none working for a living.


Maybe your God gives them free food and they do not have to work. And also some of us have time to go visit places to conduct census on the working habits of our fellow beings.


And that's why you find maximum muslims in all these unethical jobs,smuggling,loot,terrorism.


Unemployment-Crime paradigm is a myth proved again and again in a series of experiments conducted by Webster and many others.

It is a good habit not to make statements about anything which we know nothing about. Pre-existing notions about Unemployment-Crime relation and involvement of the minority community, is a myth promoted by the state forces.

However, this statement is flawed too?

    Is there a positive correlation between Unemployment and Crime.Some studies say yes ;
    Reconsidering the unemployment and crime relationship: Variation by age group and historical period - Cheste L.Britt.

Some say no :

Unemployment and Crime: New Evidence for an Old Question. - Kerry Papps , Rainer Winkelmann


The bottom line is there is no definitely answer to whether the correlation is positive or negative.

And Unemployment-Crime relation only applies to petty crimes. If a person do not get a job he will not go to become a terrorist. That's insanity and any claim to that is too.


Unemployment cannot lead to terrorism. ( cite : Is crime cointegrated with income and unemployment?: A panel data analysis on selected European countries - Baharom, A.H.
Habibullah, M.S.

)

That was a stupid remark.



otherguy:

2> They are poor, yet they cannot send their herd of buffaloes to a school to get educated, but rather can send them to madrasahs, because the utmost importance is to know religion, not to get educated.I am qouting a Muslim "We keep beard, we keep ourselves untidy to show that these earthly matters are insignificant to us compared to Allah;

on the qayamat days, we need to prove what we have done for Allah"


me :


I am quoting directly from a recent report from a high profile commission (Sachar commission report) set up by the honorable Prime Minister.


The popular perception that religious conservatism among Muslims is a major factor for not accessing education is incorrect. The recognition of their educational backwardness is quite acute amongst a large section of Indian Muslims and they wish to rectify it urgently. There is a significant internal debate about how this should be done. Private minority institutions and Madarsas are seen as the only option available to the community for improving the educational status of the Muslim community. However, others find these to be questionable alternatives pursued by the State neglecting its own responsibility. Relying predominantly on Madarsa and denominational institutions for improving the educational status of Muslims was also seen by some as violating the spirit of the Constitution.


High dropout rates among Muslim students are worrisome. As with many Indians, the main reason for educational backwardness of Muslims is abject poverty due to which children are forced to drop out after the first few classes. This is particularly true for Muslim girls. ... Poor and illiterate parents cannot afford tuition for their children ... The opportunity costs involved in sending children to school is also too high, making it difficult for parents to do so.”


otherguy:

3> It's the Muslims who have destroyed Ram mandir, and created Babri(once again destruction came from the Muslims, and when it's reverted you feel sad??)

Had you visited Qutub Minar? While hovering I came across a Hindu architecture and later one discovered from the site that there was a huge Hindu Temple which was destroyed by Qutbuddin Aibak(I hope this was the name) to create a Victory Piller.

You speak of Taj Mahal(no doubt it's a masterpiece,but if have googled would have seen it was a Hindu Mahadev temple that was destroyed to recreate this marvel; I have read it in a BBC forum, but the details are not with me) but don't you see the pain when hundreds and thousands of these masons were killed so as to not allow them to create a marvel?


Me :


once again destruction came from the Muslims, and when it's reverted you feel sad??


I do not feel sad, I feel pity.

The original destruction was done in medieval times , when there was no law and order and men were barbaric. The Babri case is done in recent times. How can a group of people have the authority to commit such an activity in a sovereign country like India. They should be punished for destruction of public property, religion aside.


Must be referring to this one - Was the Taj Mahal a Vedic Temple? The Photographic Evidence.


The answer is given here : http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread226422/pg1


“Hindu nationalists in particular will often claim that there is 'evidence' of an ancient Hindu temple on a site that is important to Muslims, even with scant evidence. On the one hand, its a reasonable presumption, that the new religion builds its temples on the sites of the old religion, happened in Europe and elsewhere, no reason to think it'd work differently in India. But, when its a claim that involves overtly nationalistic tones, like with the supposed "Temple of Ram" or the Taj Mahal, excessive caution would be recommended. The mere existence of reports citing 'evidence' of a temple and a body of people accepting it can' t be taken to mean anything.”


Muslims leaders destroyed lots of Hindu temples, it is true. It was wrong but all leaders did that. Had Hindu leaders come after Muslims they would have done same. Like the British took away the golds and precious stones from Taj mahal. See there is a hierarchy, whoever rules, pillages and destroys the existing culture. They try to write their own history, impose their their own culture, which British successfully did and that is why you are wearing pants now and not dhotis.

The same happenned when books were burned and scholars buried by Qin Shi Huang in China.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burning_of_books_and_burying_of_scholars


The conclusion : It is not the fault of the Muslims community for these destructions but the misfortune of India (read imbecility ) that they were ruled by Muslims leaders.




otherguy:

5> Yet dawn hasn't arrived for these Muslims to realize how others are roaming at noon.

Missionary schools, college don't enforce religious rigourness.I am taught at a Hindu School and at a Christian college barring my class 10 and engineering.

But in school, IP had connections of a good and honest living, but had no connection of becoming a true Hindu. In xavier's there were optional classes where Bible were read, but there were no compulsion,no force, no negative impact. But show me one institution where only Hinduism or Christianity is taught as the prime mode of education; yet this is what's happening in Madrasahs. No terrorist groups have been reported from these ashram schools, yet SIMI was a union formed at the madrasahs.


Me :

The slur on Muslim and Madrasahs are a result of ignorance and lack of knowledge and believing what the NEWS guy says.


I quote the following unbiased study ;


Understanding Madrasahs - Alexander Evans


HOW THREATENING ARE THEY?


Madrasahs, the religious schools that educate millions of students in the Muslim world, have been blamed for all sorts of ills since the attacks of September 11, 2001. Critics have denounced them as dens of terror, hatcheries for suicide bombers, and repositories of medievalism. .... These criticisms have focused on the few dozen Pakistani madrasahs that served as de facto training grounds for jihadists fighting the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan in the 1980s. Many of these jihadists went on to become foot soldiers in later campaigns, including those against Indian rule over Kashmir and against Shiite Muslims within Pakistan. .... They extrapolate from this relatively small number of problem madrasahs in Pakistan and conclude that all madrasahs breed fanatics. ...But they are wrong. The majority of madrasahs actually present an opportunity, not a threat. For young village kids, it may be their only path to literacy. For many orphans and the rural poor, madrasahs provide essential social services: education and lodging for children who otherwise could well find themselves the victims of forced labor, sex trafficking, or other abuse. ...


And this ,


Manmohan Singh - Prime Minister’s High Level Committee - Cabinet Secretariat report


... Madarsas are seen as the only option available to the community for improving the educational status of the Muslim community. ... “


Conclusion : Madrasahs are not breeding gounds for terror but opputunity for poor Muslims to get education.


otherguy:

6> You are speaking of poor Hindus in UP,Bihar having a dozens at their houses; have a tour in J&K, you will find dozens in well-of houses.

And lastly, it's not only muslims who are poor are becoming terrorist. Doctors, engineers from renowned institutions are opting for terrorisms, Aligarh Muslim Univeristy had been the latest feather.


Me :


http://www.nihfw.org/html/VitalRates.pdf

See the page 11 fig. I think it is self explanatory. But just in case, it shows the Hindu majority population (UP , Bihar ,MP) reproduces faster than Muslim ones ( Bengal, Kerala, J&K).


http://nutritionfoundationofindia.res.in/fao%202007/FAO2007/2%20Demography/2%20Annexures%20.pdf

Birth rate

Bihar 30.4

Jammu & Kashmir 18.9


And the “have a tour in J&K, you will find dozens in well-of houses.” is that a first hand evidence and if so how large is the data sample. Once again you astound me with your demographic knowledge.

otherguy:

7> What is a religion if it cannot spread brotherhood? What is a religion if it can't respect women? What is a religion where killing is a way to jannat? And if this is wrong, no maulvis stand to protest, but they do stand to protest when a Muslim girl speaks about the oppression.

You had no answers why Muslim girls were disallowed to run in marathon; you had no reason why the muslims ruined Sania's career? You had no reason why Muslims cannot show Artistic freedom. You had no idea why the muslims become terrorist. You have no clue why Muslims are illerate(don't give me those stupid "poor" reason, there are millions of Hindus like that yet they send for schooling).You had no reason in comparing the Great ASoke,who realsed the ggod, with the ruthless Aurangazeb,who sent his brother's head as lunch to his jailed Shah Jahan.


Me :


Maulvis are idiots. Poor, uneducated Muslims listen to them and suffer. Actually all religious leaders utilize poor people to their own advantage. Christians convert street children to meet workforce requirements. Hindu extremist leaders ask people to go kill Muslims and destroy Babri and many people happily oblige.



Muslim girls were disallowed to run in marathon – citation needed.


don't give me those stupid "poor" reason

Stupidity is not my monopoly.

But the reason still remains the same.

Read the point 2. I requote

As with many Indians, the main reason for educational backwardness of Muslims is abject poverty due to which children are forced to drop out after the first few classes. This is particularly true for Muslim girls. ...”


Why there are no rich Muslims. During the British empire the Muslim class was banished from society and any remaining upper class(and rich) Muslim went to Pakistan/Bangladesh during partition.


As for Ashoka the Great, I quote wiki

Many historians assert that he might have killed his own brothers who came against his way to power.

So , doesn't this put him in the same footing as Aurangzeb? But I am not advocating Aurangzeb's deeds. He was evil beyond doubt. But his cruelty cannot be attributed to his religion.


otherguy:

8> I request you, please provide some concrete reasons to justify yourself. After so many scraps, I am kept at the same place where I was a score scraps ago.

******************************************************************************


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Before you start scrapping, I request you, please provide me proper answers to the issues pointed.If you can do it, then scrap, else not. It's a pain to write the same things again and again, and it's a torture to hear same tyune again and again.


Me :

I hope I have provided enough evidence and citations.


*************************************************************


By the way, Zakair Rahman Lakvi, one mastermind of Mumbai terror attack, has been arrested from a Muzzafarbad's madrasah.

SIMI was formed from Madrasah.

All terrorist are Muslims.

It's the Muslims who are creating imbalance in society.

It's the Muslims who have digged their head into religion, not willing to know anything other.

It's the Muslims who are rotten and crooked inside out.

I really feel sorry for all those Muslims who live in India, and think they are true Indians.

I feel sorry for all those Muslims who disbelieve in terrorism,killing in the name of jannat.

I feel sorry for all these because their saviours are tainiting their own religion.

You try to get some fruitful answers to all what I queried. But tou will have little or no answers, because the issues are truth, mot portrayed as means of a debate.



So many contributions were seen in jantar mantar,Nalanda university, but in those 300years of Mughal dynasty, tell me the contributions of science from the Muslims.They built structural marvels destroying Hindu architectures but what else did they did, except a few efforts from the great Akbar?


My point is precise.

Hindus contribution to world in terms of art + science ~ 0

(I mentioned this to make a point. But the Hindu contribution to science is huge in the ancient days. However, during medieval period there was very little contribution from India.)

Muslim contribution to art is huge. (and algebra too. I forgot to mention this.)

Europian (mostly Christian) contribution to science ~ 80%


Egyptians had some sun clock long,long before jantar mantar. There is nothing to be proud of making a big sun dial.


Once again let me reiterate the point of my debate.

I am not debating the destruction and pillaging caused by Muslim invaders. I am debating the issue that an entire community cannot be targeted for the wrongs that a portion of that community is responsible of committing .

For example it was wrong when Hitler said all Jews are bad because some of them are cruel businessman and their ancestors are responsible for killing Christ.


India was in dark ages till 19th century, and don't you think it was because of the foreign forces that ruined the culture of our country?


Which culture - of shameless betrayal, of infinite oppression of women, preventing 2/3 of the population from getting educated in the name of caste. They didn't even have the balls to withstand a foreign attack. What a proud heritage – strong defense , liberal society, freedom of knowledge, everything absent.


Right from the 14th Century India was under the Mughal dynasty,and then under the British reign.
Yet out of these oppression, people like Megnad Saha,JC Bose has emerged out of nowhere.


Shouldn't we feel ashamed that we served Britain for so long? India was educated by the British and we should be grateful to them for bringing us the light of modern civilization. Megnad Saha,JC Bose emerged out of this not from an ancient Indian Sanskrit gurukul. No British, no SN Bose.


During the period 1100 – 1500 Indian dynasties kept getting demolished by foreign invaders. With no stable socio-economic status the progress in science was stalled indefinitely. And when the Moghuls came, the Hindu society, in order to protect its identity, took up (religious) philosophy as an academic pursuit instead of science. (See the stupidity of the Hindus. ).

When the British came these idiots were forced to study science, which Sanskrit scholars marked as evil and going to England for education as unreligious act. Indians were ignorant for 1100- 1700 and forced into civilization by the British.

This implies the dark ages in India is due to weakness of its rulers, and consecutively of wrong priorities of the academics and not of foreign invaders. On the contrary, it is the foreign forces (the British) who are responsible for any scientific achievement at all among the Indians.



You are speaking of the Europe, but the money upon which they are standing now, the money for which they have uplifted themselves this much, came from India


No one got rich by pillaging. Then the Portuguese and Norwegians would have been the richest in the history. The industrial revolution propelled the European economy and not Indian gold. I thought this was taught in standard 4 and don't tell it is European propaganda and it was Indian gold all along.


Guy, you are speaking of contribution to science and maths;please tell me what came from the Muslims, during the same periods; I never came across to knowledge.


Mohammed ben Musa al_Khwarazami (d. 850) was the author of the first book on algebra.


"Al-Hazen's work on optics was the first of its kind ... The Muslims discovered alcohol, sulfuric acid, nitirc acid, royal water, potassium, ammonia salt, silver nitrate, sublimiated corrosives, as well as the method of preperation of mercury... The words alchohol, alembic, alkali, and elixir are Arabic." Islamic researches, furthermore, contributed to the development of medicine, natural sciences, and agriculture. In medicine, for example, Ibn Zohr of Muslim Spain pioneered in the method of scientific observation in medcine, surgery, and pharmacology as well as diagnosing and treating many new diseases.


This means science in Europe had a huge contribution from its Muslim population.

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